Viewing topic: Visas without contract?

Hello everybody,

[You don't need to respond, "Hello Dr Nick".]

I'm relocating from Germany to St Petersburg around the beginning of June 2008. Obviously, I'm excited about the move, having heard so many great things about the city, and having one or two friends there already.

I know that I'll need a visa to travel to Russia in the first place. (I'm British, by the way.) A job offer with a contract will doubtless render that quite simple. Unfortunately, long experience makes me very reluctant to do contract work. My experience in South Korea and Germany suggests that contract workers do longer hours, have more inconvenient schedules, and above all, get seriously less money than freelancers.

Is it really necessary for teachers new to Russia to start on a contract? Or is there a way around this?

Any advice gratefully received.

Many thanks,

Damon

Ok, have just been reading other topic posts regarding visas. Seems the current situation is pretty miserable.

The stupidity of these politicians (responsible for visa regulations) is remarkable. Why don't they grasp that their business community needs to learn English? Why, then, make it so difficult for English teachers to come and/or remain here?

A similar nightmarish visa regime is currently being imposed in South Korea, so my ex-colleagues inform me - a country even more desperate for teachers than Russia.

So, a country's economy is in dire need of a particular commodity. Let's then do everything we can to make that commodity difficult to import. Sigh.

Quick reply before running out the door on a visit to grandmother-in-law:

Elections are tomorrow, stay tuned. Visa agencies are half hoping for some changes in the laws.

In the meantime, yep - it's pretty depressing

I agree with you 100% about not being on a contract. You can command higher prices and don't have to worry about them trying to screw you at the end of the day due to something they've put in the contract. Plus, when they want to send you 2 hours away from your apartment for a 1 1/2 hour class, you can tell them you're busy.

Regarding the visa, people are getting the 90 day then leaving and getting either another 90 day or the 360 day with the 90/180 day rule. They seem to be letting people stay 180 days w/o a problem as long as the initial visa was the 90 day. Also according to the statment at the Amcham website the fine for violating the 90/180 rule is 2500 rubles. The second or third time it's violated, they can decide not to issue another visa.

In short, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Get the 90 day, then go back and get another visa and then hassle with the work permit. That gives you 180 days to sort something out. You'll get screwed by a school if you come in on their visa/work permit under a contract.

An interesting idea, Tim - but I think that the embassies will soon start dropping from a great height on anyone when they realise that people are getting 'revolving visas'... It won't take that long for them to put two and two together - and the thought of entering the embassy (in a far-off land) with all the necessary docs and the fear that you might leave empty-handed (plus potentially be a bit black-listed) isn't really that appealing...

I think that the two more sensible available options are as detailed all over this site - a student visa (expensive and, in the words of bob12, "dubious" or a working visa through an agency (also quoting from bobs12, "expensive and dubious" , necessaryif you don't have enough real contacts or don't trust anyone else enough.

I have opted for the latter and it is a tad expensive.. Fees to the agency are about 1100 euros plus various other disbursements plus a pop-over to the UK (flight costs and loss of earnings)... But I have found a soluton for that - I have just increased the cost of my group classes by 20% )

But I strongly believe (I sound just like a politician, don't I?) that it will all settle down quite quickly, prices will reduce as more agancies start offering the service and we will be looking back and wondering what on earth we were worrying about....

Regarding working for a school to get your visa ? Wouldn't touch 'em.... Soon students will be crying out (even more?) for teachers who work 'individually' so, (again I agree with bob12 - perhaps I should marry him?!!!) for the freelancers, the world will be their proverbial...

....an', looking back, I can't spell and I can't even correctly spell the name of my (possible) intended...

Anyway - he's not even talking to me, it seems - Bet it's cos I got in on Jana before he did!!! (Lucky me!!! (not))

(I got the verbal sh*tz tonight..)

And (dearie) bobs12, when might I be able to upload a new profile pic?... It's been a while.... Stockers feels somewhat neglected... and anonymous.....

Stocky Leotard wanted to be anonymous, didn't he? Try an upload, it should work. Or when all this weddin BS is over I'll upload a suitably humorous pic for you

Don't worry, I'm over the Jana thing now. It took a while, but I got there.

I have to say, I agree with Stocky agreeing with me. Tim - all due respect, you're a smart guy and all, but messing with the Russian visa regime is like a game of Russian roulette - someone will be the first.

The old business visa trick was well-established and well-used. Getting a new visa every three months is:

a) expensive

b) hassle

c) increasing the frequency of opportunities (and icentive) to the RF government to deny you entry to the country.

As Stockwell Leopold rightly put, it's a matter of time before there's a missive sent to the embassies saying 'stop these a-hole teachers from buggering about with visas'. Trust us, this is Russia, we've been here longer than many, we know how the wheel turns. If a law is introduced in Russia, it's not always an invitation to sidestep it. Getting refused a visa when your home is in Russia would be a good reason to have a nervous breakdown.

I can't, simply can't recommend to anyone that they do anything that is explicitly or implicitly prohibited by law. The old business visa stunt was just ever-so-slightly borderline - there were no laws saying you couldn't do it. There ARE laws saying you can't do certain things now, and it would be just stupid to try it.

With work/student visas, you are at least obeying the letter of the law, which, in a bureaucratic system like in the RF, is more important than obeying the spirit of the law. That's how the old system worked.

The visa agency I use (which would stand to make good money if I went back and forth for new visas every 3 months) categorically said DON'T DO IT, IT MIGHT WORK A FEW TIMES AND THEN YOU'LL GET BUSTED. And they know way more about these things than I do.

Hmm. I seem to be agreeing a lot with Stocktake and myself. Maybe all three of us should get married and live in unholy matrimony?

I agree that leaving the country every three months is a bad idea.

My point was that the guy who posted the question can get the 90 day visa and then get either another 90 day visa or the year long with the 90/180 day rule printed on it. This gives him 1/2 a year to straighten things out. I think that may be a better idea then getting ripped off by some school to get a visa.

By the way, how's the English teaching market in St. Petes? Moscow's pretty hot, especially if you can specialize in legal, finance, or something along those lines. It's actually becoming worth my while to teach a few nights out of the week.

The letter of the 90/180 law says 90 days in, 90 days out. Compliance is not practical, getting caught is not worth it.

Teachers are in demand as ever. I still get asked to teach by students in companies that I left ages ago. Specialising is definitely the way to go. Not necessarily in a business discipline - just focusing on one sector for general English can mean that word spreads quicker.

Sorry, Tim, I see what you were recommending now - but at least we have a consensus that revolving visas probably isn't worth it, just in case anyone was thinking of trying it...

Yeah - business is brisk in SPB in my view as well - plenty of potential students around and it's not too difficult to find them... I should imagine that rates in Moscow are probably considerably higher, especially if you can get in with the right people - but has to be offset against the higher costs involved living there, I should also imagine.

Having offered all this valuable (?) advice, I am not even sure if danhagar is still around listening to it...

Damon - Are you there?....

650 rubbles per academic is the general rate. Of course, people will try to get you to work for less. Since, I'm a lawyer, if it's work at a law firm, I charge 800 - 900 rubbles based on whether I like the school. They can take it or leave it.

If you're working on your own with privates, you can charge more of course.

Regarding the cost of living, it's not too bad here. I pay 450US a month for a room in a two bedroom apartment,or 900 for a two bedroom not far from the center. You can find a room in the center (not a comunal flat, but with nice roommates) for around 800US.

The advantage of Moscow is you've got opportunities to make money outside of teaching. I'm a lawyer in the states, so I get an occasional trademark or some kind of legal consultancy fairly often. My brother is also a lawyer, so I'm going to start advertising and sending immigration and real estate stuff to his firm (and take a percentage of course).

Yes guys, still hear and checking in regularly. A belated THANKS for all the comments and advice.

And that applies even if the situation still sounds agonisingly, appallingly, cripplingly complex. Really, it's like something out of Kafka

As I've mentioned before, a school in St P has offered to deal with visa issues on my behalf, in return for a short-term contract. I emphasise "short term".

This is the way I'll probably go. Seems to me the whole visa situation is clouded by a giant fog of dust, which probably won't dissipate for several months until things have got back to normal after the election. Somehow, I doubt the visa difficulties of EFL teachers are high on old Medvedev's list of priorities

But the bottom line. Some Russians (especially business people) NEED TO LEARN ENGLISH. For this to happen, some native-speaker ESL teachers have to be allowed in, and have to be allowed to stay for a reasonable period of time.

Doubtless it'll all be sorted out sooner or later; just a question of when.

Thanks again for all the very useful input!

Damon

I knew 'e wos 'ere!

650 roubles an ac. hour in Moscow - sounds about right. But at 450 USD to rent just a bedroom... whoa... you'd need to be earning at the top of the range, all the time to make it better than St. Pete's.

When I was planning to move to Moscow, I chucked the plan for a number of reasons:

1) Bigger gap between income and spending vs. Petersburg

2) Greater commuting distances (I wanted to live at Bratislavskaya)

3) Even more congestion, pollution, stress, hassle = lower quality of life

For 450 USD or a bit more, you can get a whole 1-room flat to yourself in SPb. In Moscow, the place I was staying in was a one-room flat and the rent was 15000 roubles a month, which equates in today's money to about 600 USD. The flat was new and in perfect condition (by Russian standards) and in a good area, which made it relatively cheap for Moscow.

I calculated that to be on the same level as I was at in SPb (already not teaching at that point) I would have needed to be earning about 70,000 - 80,000 roubles a month minimum.

Taking a rate of 650 an ac. hour (which you can get in SPb - the going rate for private lessons with a good teacher is about 1200 per hour, if you are doing groups you can easily make 800 an hour or more) you would need approx. 110 teaching hours a month = 25 ac. hours/week = 17 lessons/week = an average of 3.3 lessons per day (based on a 5-day week).

Doesn't sound much, but doing three lessons a day in SPb with travel involved is knackering enough.

Working from the weekly figure of 17 lessons, and assuming an average of two hours return travel per lesson (this is the SPb average for me and alex_j) we get:

17*(1.5+2) = 59.5

That's a 60-hour working week, or roughly 12 hours per day in order to give three lessons. That assumes no breaks between lessons other than travelling and no preparation time. Factor that in and your working day stretches to 15 hours or more.

That's a conservative estimate of how long a working day you would need to make 70,000 roubles a month in Moscow at 650 roubles/ac. hour. Travelling time there will be more, I'm certain, so call it 16 hours a day.

That leaves only 8 hours for sleeping and doing other things.

Also you need to include a 20% cancellation/dropoff rate, so you would need 20% more work in order to make that 70,000, so add another 3 hours to your 16 if you want to be sure of exactly 70,000.

That means you have to sleep on the metro between lessons

The only way out of this situation is to group your lessons by time and location to reduce travelling, or teach from home. Travelling accounts for approximately 56% of your working day, so if you were to cut it out completely you could probably earn the same working from home with just about 10 hours per day, providing you can get your lessons scheduled close enough together.

Teaching from home in SPb. is fair enough, but I wouldn't want to try it in Moscow except with people I knew well enough. Our Well-Stocked, Yana-knobbing Leotard will confirm that you need to be on good terms with your neighbours if you have a lot of visitors coming to your flat, especially if they come in groups. Plus you need to spend a bit more on rent in order to get a conveniently located and presentable hovel from which to teach.

It would be fortuitous to choose a place in a well-off location to begin with, in order to be closer to the money and to get more $ per hour. This means a big investment, and a bigger risk.

Stay tuned and I'll give you all a small present

Here's a slightly adapted version of the Excel spreadsheet that I used to use for keeping a track of income.

I've adapted it to show various breakdowns (I think it works pretty well) and also to compare earnings with expenses. I've written in some fairly modest estimated expenses, based on SPb and a work visa via an agency.

The fields highlighted in lilac are for you to put in your own figures, the pale yellow fields show breakdowns and the rich yellow shows final figures.

Feel free to bugger about with it, improve it, etc.

Download it here: http://www.visarus.co.uk/vr_income_calculator.xls

Quick explanation of how it works:

Enter the number of lessons at each rate per week (I've included spaces for 4 different rates - you can change the rates).

Cancel % is the cancellation rate. A safe estimate is 20% for individual lessons, and about 5% for groups. Make an estimate at what your average will be. Safer to overestimate than underestimate.

Split (hours) is the average waiting time between lessons, on top of travelling time. The spreadsheet assumes 2 hours travelling for every lesson.

Working day hours is your average working day from start to finish in real (60 min) hours.

Corrected real hourly rate is based on your gross income, divided by working day hours multiplied by 21.2 (average working days per month). This is a bit rough, as there are minor discrepancies in the calculation, but it gives a fair indicaiton.

This shows the difference between your hourly teaching rate and your real hourly income - pretty huge.

Lesson travel is the cost of traveling to and from the lesson - 50 roubles is a fair average for SPb.

The visa costs are plucked out of thin air, but I think they will be reasonably representative of actual costs. It shows how they equate to monthly expenses.

Other expenses are a rough (modest) estimate - I'll put up some example costs soon so you can make a better estimate of your own expenses.

The way I'd recommend you use the calculator is to work out how many lessons at what rates you will need in order to cover your expenses & get an idea of what your working day will be like. Then add extra lessons up to your max. working day to see what kind of actual income you can expect.

Feedback appreciated. Consider this v0.01 I'll tweak it a bit later so you can put in different variables.

You can also use it just to get a breakdown of what's involved in one lesson - it should help you to work out what you need to charge.

Hi Damen - good to hear from you again. If you would like to PM me with the name of the school who is offering you a visa (what are they offering? - a business one for 3 months?), I will tell you what I know about them (if anything).

Also thanks to Tim for the breakdown on things in Moscow. I charge 750 rubles per academic for 1-2-1s here in SPB but I also teach private groups with usually 8 or 9 students in each group, which obviously is a lot better deal (for me and them I have a pretty large 3-room flat (85m2) near the centre, which I understand I get at a ridiculously low rent of $550 per month... But I rent it from a student (and friend)...

I don't travel to teach, except for one bit of business teaching - which I keep going just to get me out of the flat now and again. I teach about 50 academic per week on average - and take about 4 months holiday a year )

Regarding spreadsheets for tracking earnings: Yeah - I've got something similar as I believe it's very important to keep track of what you're earning. However, I have two spreadsheets. One is a sort of rolling account sheet in which each bit of teaching is entered up (but entering the name of the student automatically fills in the hourly rate and calculates the total earnings for the teaching and the teaching hours) and then the spreadsheet further calculates out weekly/monthly/total earnings to date, working hours per week, month/ytd plus average rolling rate per academic hour for the year and what percentage of total income is derived from where (1-2-1/private groups/other) etc etc...

Then I also have something which is a weekly timetable - When you enter in a bit of teaching it calculates out how much you make per day/week/month/year, both in dollars and UK pounds and total working hours for the day and week and the overall average rate per hour for that week.

Like Bobs12 version, it probably sounds tedious and time-consuming - but it's not really and things are made simpler by my timetable being pretty regular from week-to-week. I find it very useful for seeing how things are going, either in detail or in more general view...

Yep, using a spreadsheet might sound a bit geeky if you're just teaching, but as a freelancer you really are running a one-man business. If you don't keep an eye on income and expenditure, you can end up like a lot of dumba$$es that come out here and end up broke.

Once you start teaching, it's worth setting up a spreadsheet like Stockster's (love the pic by the way) that represents your own situation and tracks earnings.

I really couldn't work out where all my hard-earned cash was disappearing to until I did a spreadsheet and put all the figures in. It turned out that it was a combination of the visa expenses, cancellations from one company and travel expenses that had thrown my mental arithmetic off.

I've just changed the spreadsheet to let you put in your own traveling and preparation times.

It shows what a massive difference teaching from home would make to your real hourly rate

Note that if you set travelling to zero, you should adjust the split rate to take account of time between lessons so that it reflects your total working day (start to finish) more accurately.

Guys;

Look, teaching English to make money isn't a good idea. You can make more working at a bar, temping (I made more money in 1 month of temping in NYC then I spent in 8 months in St. Pete), or moving boxes in the West. If you're teaching English to make moeny, it turns into a time consuming hassle. If you want to make money in Russia, you've got to work on a western salary, open a buisness, import things, or offer in demand services (in my case legal). That's why Moscow is a good option. However, teaching English gives you something to do, lets you meet people, and covers the majority of your expenses. This gives you plenty of time to go out and party it up.

So you've got to prioritize what you want. If you want money, go to Moscow, you have more opportunities to land a job with a western salery or make money off the locals. If you want to sleep late, drink, and not work, then go to a smaller russian city (St. Pete, Ekaternberg, Samara, etc.). The problem is that with the new visa rules (personally I think given 3-6 months there will be a reasobably priced work around), you're forced to work as a language teacher at a school. When you're freelancing, you can make up some BS to get out of work if they try to send you to the other side of town or if something that pays better comes up.

Tim

Hi Tim

Funnily enough, this is a site about teaching English, not working in bars. If people here wanted to temp in bars, they'd go to my other site, www.bartempsrus.com

People are coming here (to VisaRus) to explore ways of making money (i.e. a living) from teaching. I think it would be pretty hard to persuade the many dozen EFL teachers that make a living from EFL teaching that it can't be done

It's a lifestyle choice, not an income choice.

Yet again I (almost) agree with bobs12!! Why? Well, although I know of many, many teachers who just scrape by and some who even don't - I also know of a relatively few who make a pretty good living from just teaching English freelance in SPB... By 'a good living', I mean in the region of $8,000-$9,000 a month - which will allow you to bumble through in Russia reasonably well...

In fact, if you work smart and if you get yourself organised and make sure that (just like in any business), you know enough people, teaching English can be rather enjoyable way of getting by... And hey!.... You can even save some money if you don't go too wild...

Your suggested way of juggling the system is only necessary if you work for schools. Cut out the middle-man, cut out the travelling - and all of that won't really be necessary...

Remember, of course, Tim - that you might have earned the equivalent of 8 month's SPB teaching income in NY by - but could you also have lived on it for 8 months there?... I think not....(of course)

When all's said-and-done, it's horses for courses - If you can earn money elsewhere and then choose to enjoy the fruits of your labours back here, then who is to question it? I also don't think that it's absolutely essential to go to that so-called Mecca that is Moscow to make a pretty decent living from teaching...

Good point guys; I forgot the site was about EFL teaching and not making money. However, my thery on ESL teaching is this. Work as much as possible for a short time (three months) where salaries and expenses are high, and then live where everything is cheaper.

Once you've saved up a bunch of money back home, all you relly need to do is teach one lesson, live with a flatmate in a reasonabel place, and you have plenty of money to go out and have fun with. This solves a lot of problems that arise with teaching abroad. You don't have to wake up early, and you don't have to commute forever to get to a lesson. There's always a shortage of experienced teachers, so if the school tries to screw you with the commute time or scheule something early in the morning, you tell them no.

The problem for me is going to be the visa. The schools won't hire me if I tell them that I want to come over and only teach 1 course per day and only after 1PM. If I get over here and try to renegociate, they'll revoke the visa. Big problem

8-9K per month teaching English in SPB, huh? Maybe it could be done for 1 month, but I have a hard time beliving it could be done every month. I mean the average contract teacher here (Moscow) is at 2-2.5K per month. So, someone that sets up private lessons on his or her own might be able to make 6-7K per month, but 4K is probably the average (and that's someone working hard).

You've also got to figure that corporations want to go through a school so that the money is accounted for. They have to pay things like taxes, and need to keep accounting data. So, that means you can't stick some corporation with a hugh bill if you're freelancing. You have to deal with individual students.

I ocassionally hear that people are gettin 100 bucks per lesson or whatever. It might happen every once in a while, but I doubt it's sustainable. For one thing, rich people that can pay that kind of money send their kids abroad to private schools in the UK, or they send the kids to private schools where the teachers have teaching credentials from the US. The adults that are rich have their corporation pay for the lessons, and they go through a school.

However, what you can do is use teaching to network with corporations. Then you can offer other services, like proofing, legal, web design, etc. Then I think maybe the 8K per month is sustainable.

Wait, which Russia are we talking about here?

However, my thery on ESL teaching is this. Work as much as possible for a short time (three months) where salaries and expenses are high, and then live where everything is cheaper.

or they send the kids to private schools where the teachers have teaching credentials from the US.

Or look at it another way:

35+ (4 groups of around students sign up for a 13,000 ruble, 12-week course - and pay the lot in advance AND give repeat 'orders' ...or even bring their friends along as well...

= 35 X 13,000 = 455,000 rubles - divided by 12
= $1580/week

PLUS 5 X 1-2-1s studying for various periods per week with very few cancellations (GOOD students)
= $700/week

Miscellaneous other teaching
= $170/week
Total per week = $1580+$700+$170 = $2450/week...X 52/12 = $10,600/month

Total working hours/travelling per week - 55 academic (5.5-day week)

COSTS
Advertising? ... What's that...?
Whiteboard pens $2
Travelling NIL

Could only do it for a month? ....Only if you're pretty lazy and can't get out of bed ... My mate's been doing it for simply YEAAARS!!!

Like I say, you just gotta be organised, reliable and know a few people....

I've been teaching for 27 years. If I went and did some off-the-cuff legal work somewhere and said to the professionals that they would be better just tending a bar or stacking shelves, do you think they would be offended at all?
I'm here to teach. I happen to think there is a sight more satisfaction to be had in that than in bottle-washing. Maybe it's just me...
If people don't really want to teach, perhaps they should stay at the bar (of either sort).

Well - we seem to have digressed a little from the initial point of the thread, don't we...?

So, regarding whether it is better to come to Russia on a self-arranged visa or via a school invitation, my personal view is that it is better to D-I-Y it, although, if it is offered, a school invite will get you in - and then you can take it from there if you choose...

Although I may strongly disagree with some of the things that have been said here, I would, in the words of Voltaire - (y'know - the man what invented volts ) "defend until death, the right to say them"...Or was it Churchil...?????

So let's calm down and respect each other's views (even though we may think a bit differently)

(But I still think that it's quite possible to make a nice fat pile of cash teaching in Russia whilst enjoying it - and without killing yourself

Going back to something that danhager said a while ago which I have meant to pick up on - but didn't...until now...

"But the bottom line. Some Russians (especially business people) NEED TO LEARN ENGLISH. For this to happen, some native-speaker ESL teachers have to be allowed in, and have to be allowed to stay for a reasonable period of time."

There is no such modal as "to have to" here in Russia....

I've also spotted something that bobs12 said a while back - which, I have to confess, conjured up some rather interesting visions in my mind...

Listed 'entrepreneurial history': "translation, marketing consultancy, recruitment, web design & programming, courier service".... WHAAAAAT???.... Hang on a goddarn minute!!!.... A GODDAM COURIER SERVICE!!!?????

The mere thought of bobs12 speeding merrily along the embankments of St-Pee with a veritable tower of parcels piled high on the the rear carrier of his phut-phut velociped.... WELL!!!....

.....Ha! Ha! Ha! HA! HA! HA! HA!

(I'll say that one more time... )

....Ha! Ha! Ha! HA! HA! HA! HA! LOL!

Close, close It was actually speeding out to Parnas in a clapped-out Ford Fiesta XR2 taking samples of printed t-shirts to the Baltika brewery, evenings after work and weekends.

My girlfriend at the time worked in a wholesale jeans-n-t-shirts company, and they had (probably still have) the exclusive contract to supply Baltika with all types of printed promo t-shirts. They had to run samples out on a regular basis, and the only person in the company with a car was the G.D.

As the only other person remotely connected to them that had anything closely resembling a 'car', I had the dubious pleasure of running errands out to the arse-end of town.

Anyone who thinks it would be a good job - no way Jose. I'm sure it led to me abandoning said 'car' several countries away from Europe

Incidentally, marketing consultancy still goes on in dribs and drabs, but unless you're a self-made guru or you get a contract, it's not easy in Russia. What's common sense for us takes hours and hours to persuade Russians to do or not to do.

To make it really work, you have to make your fee astronomical. Otherwise you can tell them all you want, but they really want to hear you tell them how good their ideas are and that they don't have to change anything.

Recruitment - still doing it for schools to some extent. Made good money at it one winter, but it's a lot of hassle. There are good opportunities for freelance recruiters with software companies, but here you need to watch whose toes you're stepping on.

Hey guys;

Looks like we have a pretty good discussion going on here. You guys have to buy me a beer when I visit St. Pete, that way we're all freinds again.

Anyway, 9-10K per month. I simply don't believe it it is sustainable every month. I talk to long term english teahers here and they might say they're making 100K per year or whatever, but it isn't happening. They argue about the beer tab, don't go to expensive restaurants, and don't drive a porshe around. 4K per month is doable if you're freelanceing.

Also, doing outside work. I charged a guy $2300 for a tradmark. That's 200 under the market price -- so the guy was happy. I pocketed (after using my brother in the state with the escrow account) $1800 US. Took me half a days work to file it electronically. Immigration work is also easy to do here. Charge the client, send the work to the states, make money. I suspect real estate is the same thing. Also, money management (retirement, etc) is hot and the people doing it have 2 year degrees from western schools and "MBAs" from Russian ones. If you've got a degree jump in there and start making the bucks. The russians are getting smarter and running background checks on the scumbags trying to pull this nonsence.

Advertising -- you need a website and buisness cards. Business cards 20 bucks. Website -- buy dream weaver and a bunch of other programs at the local mall -- 200 rubbles (8US). Put some adds in local news papers 20- bucks. Bang -- you're charging 2300 for trademarks, 1500 for immigration paperwork, 1000 for copyright, 10-15K for patent. Real estate you can probaly do well in also.

Landing an expat job -- al long as it's not NGO or peace core nonsense you're talking 80K per year minimum plus a housing allowance, plus air fare, plus vacation. Oil and gas -- the saleries are astronomical.

So, my point is this -- if you want to make money push something besides English teaching or try and land the expat job. Use English as a lever to get in there and talkt ot people. There's too many people trying to teach English and all they need is 1 month in a TELSA course, or they're smart enough to lie on their resume. Half of the people out there teaching English don't even have a college degree (karen and some D school people I know). If you want money, push the areas where you have skills and that requre a degree.

Also, if you like teaching English (personally, I enjoy it), why not make money somewhere else (e.g., temp for 3 months) then teach English abroad. Then you don't have to wake up early or commute all over the place. English teaching is fun as long as it's not full time work.


Tim

Tim,

Sorry - but largely disregarding the main detail of most of what you wrote, I have just two questions which spring pretty readily to mind:-

If, as you say, there is so much potential for making 'BIG MONEY' in Moscow, why isn't it a large part of it coming your way - and why were you working in a bar?

Note for Bobs12: How is development of HackLawyerRus coming along?

Tim, (again)

I've been sitting here looking at my last reply to your most recent post and the conclusions I have reached are that: 1) my last post was far too polite - and 2) you really seem to be living in a total world of dreams...

I would hereby suggest that all would-be visitors to Russia completely disregard any further posts from Tim giving 'advice' about teaching in Russia....

I seems I have to say all this because the other guys who can clearly see what goes on in the 'real Russian world' just ain't around - or simply can't be bothered to put finger to keyboard as I have done..

An' I certainly won't be buying you a beer by way of an apology btw, ole pal.....

Since when has telling the truth as you (and many others) see it necessitated apologising....?

Tim's definitely lost the plot a bit but he's a nice chap, hence all the patience.

Tim - I'll buy you a beer next time you're back in SPb, but please, please stop making us both look silly! What you're saying has a couple of miles in it, but it's more apt for expat.ru or the likes so take it there. VisaRus is about t-e-a-c-h-i-n-g, for people who want to t-e-a-c-h, not work in bars

Thanks, bobs12 - I just knew that there had to be someone around who felt the same as I do

Tim, you really should stop spouting this nonsense. Just because you seem to have no personal experience of making good money from teaching, doesn't mean that it isn't actually possible. To think like that is to 'ASSUME' - and as many will already know (to use a phrase which you might take easily on board, Tim - as it appears to be an 'Americanism' which, from your style of writing, I would say you are quite fond of)

"To do so....

...makes an ASS out of U and (seemingly) as ASS out of ME"

(an' I'm sure you really wouldn't want to do either.....)

There is absolutely no debate whatsoever here about whether Tim is a 'nice chap' or not.
I am quite sure he is - it just seems that his Russian perception plug seems to have come a little adrift from his reality socket, maybe just temporarily...

You know, I could have sworn I had laid finger to keyboard in this vein somewhere up there. It must have got buried by all the sh1t someone has filled this thread with.

Yours also unapologetically, etc.

I've been interviewing so I haven't had a chance to reply.

Nonsense -- huh? Do you guys have any idea what an ex-pat that has been sent over here by a western company makes? I.e., an expat on a western salery? 200Kish per year that's what. They get an addition to their base salery for being out of the country, a houseing allowance, etc. Plus, if they're head of a department stocks and in some cases profit sharing. This isn't only execs, some of the non-college educated guys on the oil rigs are pulling in 6 figure saleries. Even if they wanted to live on a local salery, some have family back home, so they have to be paid lucrative slaries in order to keep them overseas. Don't think because the expats at bars don't brag about money that it means they don't have it. Most of them are doing quite well.

Now if you come in on a local salery, obviously, it's a different story. However, if you can stick it out and you're resasonably good, you'll eventually get the ex-pat salery. They know you'll jump ship.

With regard to the comment about teaching English, I enjoy it also. However, I also enjoy not having to think about money, and putting a sizeable chunk of money in my account each month. That isn't going to happen teaching English.

Also, if there isn't a way around the new visa rules, the schools will force the private teachers out of the market and send non-native teachers over to the courses. If you've ever looked at a spread sheet about who's teaching what, you'll see that about 1 out of 5-10 teachers is native. Then they'll use the work permit to force teachers to work full time. Even if they raise the saleries, it prevents the teachers from working on the side or searching for other (more lucrative) employment, so overall, it will result in less income for english teachers.

Are you making 200k?

See anyone on this forum dying to work on an oil rig?

For any students watching, it's:
salary (n. sing.)
salaries (n. plural)
"... remuneration to someone employed usually in non-manual work." Probably not oil rigs, then.

yep. And schools aren't going to force private teachers to the wall, visa rules are. For those who care to get round the rules, the private teaching market will be left wide open. And I'd love to find a teacher who wants to work on an oil rig

Obviously, I'm not working on an oil rig (nor in a bar). The point was that ex-pats are making a lot of money. Since someone thought that my comments were nonsense, I decided to bring up the expat saleries.

Regarding the work around for the visa rule, I agree 110%. But the question is how. I love living in Moscow and working part time. However, the new visa rule will screw it up completly. Any suggestions would be appreciated. The only thing I can think of is to study at MGU for a semester and then use the qualifications to land an ex-pat job.

This has officially become the most absurd thread on the VisaRus forum

Tim, the 'expat' jobs you are talking about don't get handed out like candy at Hallowe'en. That's probably why you (and I) don't have one. Aside from the fact that I (and most people here) aren't looking for one, and probably aren't qualified anyway (like most people here, though I know there are some who are). Even those who are potentially able to pick up a big-bucks 'expat job' are HERE TO TEACH (by here, I mean on VisaRus).

To get the massive bucks and expense accounts, you have to be worth massive bucks and an expense account.

That generally means you need a proven track record in a Fortune 500 with connections coming out of your a$$, or you just need connections coming out of (or going into) your a$$. Or you need to start from the ground up.

Nobody will just give you a massive salary (or celery) for being a foreigner. Right now, Tim, I'd say you'd struggle to get a decent teaching contract (judging from your attitude to work), let alone a 20k-per-month-plus-bonuses 'expat job'.

Never mind the fact that a lot of people here are escaping the rat-race, suit-and-tie jobs, not looking for them.

If you want to make big money, Tim, you're right - FORGET TEACHING! You certainly wouldn't be likely to make big bucks with your approach. If you want to make big money, go back to the states and do it there. If you want to live in Russia, learn the realities and learn to get by first.

If you really want to live in Russia as an 'expat', what's the point of the exercise? No different than being in the US, except you get shouted at more often

Dear all in general - and Tim in particular,

I noticed, (sitting here in the UK currently btw), that Cairo picked up on a pretty obvious and repeated spelling error you made, Tim....

He was, in fact, being very kind (as we all are here at VisaRus, of course ...

Now don't get me wrong, Tim... It's not a personal attack on you (because, traditionally it seems, it may cost me a beer ..... but probably won't cos I won't be buying it for you) - But how on earth can you possibly teach English well and completely accurately with such a surfeit of spelling errors as displayed in your posts? (These being, I surmise, not just typing mistakes like wot I make

Your posts are absolutely full of 'em!!!

And I still say, please DO stop talk talking nonsense (for t'was I).... Or, alternatively, lay off the wacky-baccy for a while before you try to sum Russia up....